THE MBA DATING: B-schools with Most Attractive Student Body : The B-School Application

**stonecold** · Feb 14, 2018

RULE 101 : EXPAND YOUR HORIZON AND CONSIDER UNDERGRADUATES

No one selects MBA programs based on the hotness of their female students, so a Bloomberg Businessweek ranking of schools based on that criteria is a bit of a joke, right?

Well, its not that simple. Different individuals want different things out of an MBA. Some of us want to be the CEO of a Fortune 500. Some of us want to enter non-profit. Some of us just need a break (not the best of reasons) and hell, some of us want to wind up selecting a B-school just based on the attractiveness of its male/female student body so as to meet that "perfect soulmate" which, if you ask me, does not exist.

There are plethora of males that end up matriculating every year. So If you are a male and think that getting an Ivy MBA-admit will help you get laid -> Well, hold on lumberjack. The good news is that female MBA's are increasing year after year. The bad news is that you will face some intense competition within your MBA and outside.

Lets look at an interesting poll (done back in 2012)

Wait what?
Darden?
BU?

Okay maybe BU but no way Darden winds up on that list. I don't know.

The only choice that makes sense to me in the above poll is Wisconsin Madison. It not only has one of the most attractive student bodies but is also notorious to have some of the sickest undergraduate parties.
Hey stone why are you mentioning the undergraduate students. Aren't we taking about an MBA program?

Here is the hunch -> When you in a B-school, YOU ARE IN A B-SCHOOL!
And a B-school also has undergraduate students, some of whom must be looking for the exact same thing as you are.
Maybe a hookup.
Maybe a serious relationship.
Or maybe just having a good "friend" to talk out all the crap they go through during their study schedules.
You get the point.

The Myth behind dating undergraduates ->
Now lets address the biggest worries with dating undergraduates.
Will the whole " the guy who dates undergraduates" tag come to bite you while you look to expand your network?
Will it tank my reputation among my peers?

Answer -> It depends.
Depending on age, maturity and individual choice you may want to hit on the undergraduates.

Lets get some expert opinion on this one straight from the horse's mouth.
Here is the outlook on the dating the undergraduates from a Wharton alum (to whom I completely agree with) :-

Sometimes I wish I could be anonymous.

Anyhow, I have a different perspective on this.

In school, there are usually a handful of guys who get a reputation for dating undergrads. And they get teased for it. It's mostly good natured ribbing, nothing too serious or indignant (at least when I was in school). And I hear you all about the "different stages of life" blah blah blah.

However, my view now is: WHO CARES.

If you want to, go for it. Seriously. You'll likely have a great time. Don't rationalize yourself out of doing something if your impulse takes you there.

This whole "different stages of life" also presupposes a lot -- that you guys with a few years' experience are that much more mature and "adult" than the undergrads.

And the truth is, you're not. You think you are, but you're not that grown up yet. Especially if you're still single or not yet married, believe me, you're not as grown up as you think.

Looking back at myself and a lot of my fellow classmates and peers, at least amongst the folks with no children, the only substantive difference between us and the undergrads was a bigger bank account, and a taste of the real world. But emotionally and mentally, we were still wrestling with many of the "who am I really?" identity issues that the undergrads faced. A lot of the base insecurities all the way from childhood remain. Yes, you have more exposure to the world, but are you really sure you know that much more about yourself as a person than you were in undergrad? A bit more perspective and maturity perhaps, but you're not *that* far removed from your undergrad days. You have the same kinds of neurosis, inferiority complexes, self image issues, parental issues, etc. that you've had since you were in junior high. You want to fit in, you want others to really like you, you really care what others think of you, and so forth. It's all normal. I've seen most people change the most after they've gotten married, and especially after they have children. Or something monumental in their lives - a death in the family, or some life-changing circumstance, or simply age (you won't be the same person in your late 30s or 40s).

A lot of MBAs seem to be torn between trying to relive their youth in school, and being in a huge rush to be "adult" and older than they are.

Most of you guys (and gals) are in your mid- to late-20s. Don't feel like you're in a rush to become an adult. Because when you're in your 40s, you'll wish you were a lot younger. Consider it an opportunity to do what you can't really do and to be what you can't be when you eventually become domesticated.

Not saying that everyone should date undergrads haha (or any undergrad) but don't presuppose that they're off limits or anything.

Also, if you are to date one, it's not because they want you to join them at some frat/sorority party or anything. They are hoping you can offer what the undergrad guys can't really offer. Which is a window into your world. Going to a nice restaurant. Going to nicer clubs. Maybe even something more cultured. They want to feel a little more adult, and being with you will make them feel that way. Of course, guys are just guys (whether a college dude or a grad school dude) - the desire and goals are the same - just the path to get there will change. :wink: As I said before, you aren't that much more mature in b-school than college (not as much as you think), but that illusion of maturity is what they are looking for in you. Of course, not every undergrad will want to date you (some will simply think "ewww. Old" but some will. Note I'm only speaking about guys - no idea how it works with women MBAs dating undergrad guys, or the gay scene (which is a whole other ballgame, no pun intended).

And if you're worried about "MBA network" or "reputation amongst your classmates" -- believe me no one will really care as much as you think. In fact, as time goes on quite a number whether they admit it or not would've wished they went after undergrads too when they had the chance.

Conclusion -> Dating undergrads won't tank your reputation and keep you from ever leveraging classmates in the future. As Mr. Stinson rightly said:

"TED, IF YOU SEE AN OPPORTUNITY, MAKE THE MOST IT"

**stonecold** · Feb 14, 2018

Now that we have discussed as to why undergraduates aren't off limits -> In the next post we will look at B-schools with the MOST attractive (read hottest) student body.

**TheIvyLeagueEdge** · Feb 14, 2018

stonecold wrote:
RULE 101 : EXPAND YOUR HORIZON AND CONSIDER UNDERGRADUATES

No one selects MBA programs based on the hotness of their female students, so a Bloomberg Businessweek ranking of schools based on that criteria is a bit of a joke, right?

Well, its not that simple. Different individuals want different things out of an MBA. Some of us want to be the CEO of a Fortune 500. Some of us want to enter non-profit. Some of us just need a break (not the best of reasons) and hell, some of us want to wind up selecting a B-school just based on the attractiveness of its male/female student body so as to meet that "perfect soulmate" which, if you ask me, does not exist.

There are plethora of males that end up matriculating every year. So If you are a male and think that getting an Ivy MBA-admit will help you get laid -> Well, hold on lumberjack.
The good news is that female MBA's are increasing year after year. The bad news is that you will face some intense competition within your MBA and outside.

Lets look at an interesting poll (done back in 2012)

Wait what?
Darden?
BU?

Okay maybe BU but no way Darden winds up on that list. I don't know.

The only choice that makes sense to me in the above poll is Wisconsin Madison. It not only has one of the most attractive student bodies but is also notorious to have some of the sickest undergraduate parties.
Hey stone why are you mentioning the undergraduate students. Aren't we taking about an MBA program?

Here is the hunch -> When you in a B-school, YOU ARE IN A B-SCHOOL!
And a B-school also has undergraduate students, some of whom must be looking for the exact same thing as you and having a good time.
Maybe a hookup.
Maybe a serious relationship.
Or maybe just having a good "friend" to talk out all the crap they go through during their study schedules.
You get the point.

The Myth behind dating undergraduates ->
Now lets address the biggest worries with dating undergraduates.
Will the whole " the guy who dates undergraduates" tag come to bite you while you look to expand your network?
Will it tank my reputation among my peers?

Answer -> It depends.
Depending on age, maturity and individual choice you may want to hit on the undergraduates.

Lets get some expert opinion on this one straight from the horse's mouth.
Here is the outlook on the dating the undergraduates from a Wharton alum (to whom I completely agree with) :-

Sometimes I wish I could be anonymous.

Anyhow, I have a different perspective on this.

In school, there are usually a handful of guys who get a reputation for dating undergrads. And they get teased for it. It's mostly good natured ribbing, nothing too serious or indignant (at least when I was in school). And I hear you all about the "different stages of life" blah blah blah.

However, my view now is: WHO CARES.

If you want to, go for it. Seriously. You'll likely have a great time. Don't rationalize yourself out of doing something if your impulse takes you there.

This whole "different stages of life" also presupposes a lot -- that you guys with a few years' experience are that much more mature and "adult" than the undergrads.

And the truth is, you're not. You think you are, but you're not that grown up yet. Especially if you're still single or not yet married, believe me, you're not as grown up as you think.

Looking back at myself and a lot of my fellow classmates and peers, at least amongst the folks with no children, the only substantive difference between us and the undergrads was a bigger bank account, and a taste of the real world. But emotionally and mentally, we were still wrestling with many of the "who am I really?" identity issues that the undergrads faced. A lot of the base insecurities all the way from childhood remain. Yes, you have more exposure to the world, but are you really sure you know that much more about yourself as a person than you were in undergrad? A bit more perspective and maturity perhaps, but you're not *that* far removed from your undergrad days. You have the same kinds of neurosis, inferiority complexes, self image issues, parental issues, etc. that you've had since you were in junior high. You want to fit in, you want others to really like you, you really care what others think of you, and so forth. It's all normal. I've seen most people change the most after they've gotten married, and especially after they have children. Or something monumental in their lives - a death in the family, or some life-changing circumstance, or simply age (you won't be the same person in your late 30s or 40s).

A lot of MBAs seem to be torn between trying to relive their youth in school, and being in a huge rush to be "adult" and older than they are.

Most of you guys (and gals) are in your mid- to late-20s. Don't feel like you're in a rush to become an adult. Because when you're in your 40s, you'll wish you were a lot younger. Consider it an opportunity to do what you can't really do and to be what you can't be when you eventually become domesticated.

Not saying that everyone should date undergrads haha (or any undergrad) but don't presuppose that they're off limits or anything.

Also, if you are to date one, it's not because they want you to join them at some frat/sorority party or anything. They are hoping you can offer what the undergrad guys can't really offer. Which is a window into your world. Going to a nice restaurant. Going to nicer clubs. Maybe even something more cultured. They want to feel a little more adult, and being with you will make them feel that way. Of course, guys are just guys (whether a college dude or a grad school dude) - the desire and goals are the same - just the path to get there will change. :wink: As I said before, you aren't that much more mature in b-school than college (not as much as you think), but that illusion of maturity is what they are looking for in you. Of course, not every undergrad will want to date you (some will simply think "ewww. Old" but some will. Note I'm only speaking about guys - no idea how it works with women MBAs dating undergrad guys, or the gay scene (which is a whole other ballgame, no pun intended).

And if you're worried about "MBA network" or "reputation amongst your classmates" -- believe me no one will really care as much as you think. In fact, as time goes on quite a number whether they admit it or not would've wished they went after undergrads too when they had the chance.

Conclusion -> Dating undergrads won't tank your reputation and keep you from ever leveraging classmates in the future. As Mr. Stinson rightly said:

"TED, IF YOU SEE AN OPPORTUNITY, MAKE THE MOST IT"

Oh Come on now stonecold,
there are much better ways of telling the world that you didn't have anything constructive to do on Feb 14th

, near midnight in the South Asian subcontinent... So you wanted all those other "doing Nothing"s to also waste their time reading this...

bb · Feb 14, 2018

Founder of GMAT Club

Just starting out with GMAT? Start here with a Study Plan...
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**stonecold** · Feb 14, 2018

bb wrote:Is there going to be a follow up article from BW about the most attractive male students?

No, I dont think they will even consider that.
This poll got published a very long time back. No-one paid much attention to it except some aggressive twitter users..

In a tweet that staff deleted, the magazine promoted its poll, asking, “Which business school has the most attractive female students?”
Reactions to the tweets were overwhelmingly negative. Twitter users called it “completely inappropriate“ and “sexist and revolting.”

Apparently there was a male counterpart to the above poll. Either way, Rachel Nagler, head of communications for Businessweek, then issued a statement regarding the situation. “We regret issuing two online polls last week that asked our readers to comment on which business schools had the most attractive male and female students. The Face/Off polls have been taken down from businessweek.com. They were in poor taste and undermine the tremendous value our Business Schools vertical provides.”

Personally, I think that the only reason why the post was deemed sexist was due to the usage of the word Female. It should have been more like attractive student body and not the attractive female student Body. I see nothing wrong with the two statistics ->

Most attractive Female Student Body
Most attractive Male Student Body

But since there are a plethora of males matriculating every year, the second one is almost always ignored. (I will try and dig up something on this

)
Nevertheless, these two statistics can play a crucial role in deciding whether someone decides to matriculate at MADISON or say GEORGIA TECH.

**tinyinthedesert** · Apr 5, 2018

I can only report on the Cambridge Uni/Judge situation - only met one MBA student during my 4 years of undergrad. A lot of the Judge students are at graduate-only colleges, where the age of the other students in college are slightly more age appropriate (22+) than the 18 year old undergrads. If you go to Judge, you'll only run into undergrads if you're at a "regular" college and/or do uni-wide extra curriculars rather than college-based, unless you row/join a frat, in which case you can formal-swap with all the undergrad colleges, which is fun if you enjoy the over-consumption of cheap wine, small dingy nightclubs, and collecting college crockery as a "souvenir"

We had some older grad students at my college (late 20s) who did hit on female undergrads, and were mostly considered a bit creepy, although early-20s grad students didn't get this rep. Will your peers judge you? Probably only if you're late-20s hooking up with 18-year olds.

**redfield** · Apr 5, 2018

Question: "B-schools with Most Attractive Student Body"

Answer: "Wherever redfield ends up"

/endthread

**stonecold** · Jun 11, 2018

RULE 102 :- Understanding a women's perspective: The Myths and The Realities

People in the outside world glamorize what it is like to be a 20-something in business school. They think it must be like ‘Sex and The City’: endless romantic options, a magic carpet-ride. Indeed, there are endless parties, but romantic options are far scarcer than anyone likes to admit. We glam up and go on nights out with jokes and aspirations of ‘getting lucky’. At the end of the night, we’re mostly in the same Uber heading back together.

Dating involve two people. As such, it is very important to understand what women think about the whole dating scene at a B-school. The following are not necessarily my own views but they rather perspective of a women who also happens to be an HBS student!

“Wonder how it came to be
Things with me and you
How we lost the way to love
How we got so blue”

“And It’s Supposed to be Love”, Ayo

“Dating at HBS is rubbish”

— Several HBS students so far on separate occasions

What are the barriers, the hurdles, the reasons for this?

Dating is hard – why?

1. The numbers are not in your favor

Myth: “Going to business school with a partner is like going to a buffet with packed sandwiches”

Reality: “Going to business school single, is like going to a picnic where everyone brought their sandwiches, with no food”

The first thing to know about business school is that the average age is around 27 and that the majority of people are in relationships by this point. A lot of people are married, some have children and most are in long-term relationships. A student-led survey showed that approximately 70% of people are in relationships, although the number ‘feels’ even higher at times. Interestingly, “all the good ones are taken” seems to be a common view among both men and women who I spoke to.

2. The abundance of mistrust, disengagement & fear in our social networks

“I’ve been dropped by so many girls for not fitting their agenda, that I don’t even feel I owe them the truth any more”

— HBS guy

“It’s unbelievable how much mistrust there is in dating in America. I feel like I have to overcome a preconceived notion that I’m a douchebag when I meet a girl”

— European HBS guy on dating in the US

Poison is contagious, and there’s a lot of a poison in the dating/hooking-up/seeing circuits these days. Here’s how it starts: you start of cautiously optimistic. Then someone misleads/lies/mistreats/hurts you. Then you start expecting that others might do the same. So before they can do it to you, you do it to them, or you just avoid relationships altogether. This is one driver of the not-calling-back effect that is so prevalent these days – why pursue something when you fear it’ll end in humiliation or pain for yourself?

Where does some of this mistrust come from? I have heard numerous accusations from both genders.

Girls say…

“Girls would appreciate honesty. If you want just a hook-up, don’t pretend that you’re actually interested in me as a person”

–HBS girl

Mistrust is compounded and perpetuated by the number of guys who actively mislead girls.

Guys say…

“If you don’t fit their agenda you get dropped from the calendar”

“Girls these days are too practical”

–HBS guys

Guys complain that women don’t love them for them, but love them for various boxes they tick on their checklist…

3. Risk aversion – let’s not even try

“How much encouragement do guys need?!”

— HBS girl

Apparently a lot. In the age of Netflix, it seems that a considerable number of guys would rather binge-watch Netflix all day than actually arrange to meet another human in a romantic context. People are terrified of even asking someone out for an exploratory date for fear that even a request for one date may be seen as ‘you’re the love of my life, I want to marry you’ or may lead to entrapment in a relationship that might be less than ideal. Written out like this, you can see the ridiculousness of such fears.

The new paradigm shift that is occurring is that girls have to ask guys out. I know many couples where the woman took the initiative to make the relationship happen.

I don’t think this is a bad thing at all. But what does annoy me is that it is not reflected in our cultural lexicon. Wedding speeches or tales of how people met still feature fairy-tale-like stories of man wooing woman. Wooing?! Who does wooing any more?! “I begged her and then she finally agreed to marry me” Men still say. I’m listening thinking Oh come on, tell it like it is. She had to weave a whole net around you to get you to agree to marry.

In this new paradigm, women who were brought up with a preference for being pursued rather than pursuing (a rather large proportion of women) are disadvantaged.

4. High standards & emphasis on Physical Attractiveness above other characteristics

“The bar is simply too high”

-– HBS guy

It’s a well-observed phenomenon that even if one looks like Rowan Atkinson oneself, one wants to date Charlize Theron. This is particularly true at business school. Both men and women are guilty of it, myself included.

The other issue is that what is desirable is not necessarily what all girls want to work on. Not all women like dolling up, are particularly interested in fashion or want to spend an hour straightening their hair when they could be reading The Economist instead. Rather unfortunately, women are penalized for cultivating other areas of their life if they don’t look ‘well put-together’.

As a child, I was concerned only with the art-form, with being better at what I was doing, not worried about how I looked. Then it all changed of course when I became older and started receiving advice like:

‘You need to dress more feminine’
‘Wear heels’
‘Get your nails done’
‘Put at least one bikini photo on Hinge’

Not only are superficial characteristics highly desired in women, but characteristics I admire in women like strength, resilience, intellectual smarts, critical thinking are actually considered undesirable by some men (not all men).

Some HBS men complain that HBS women are too ambitious, too aggressive and too uncompromising. They wouldn’t want to curb back their career for him. In the women’s circles, we exchange horror stories of women who counted too much on a relationship that didn’t last. An investment banker who left his eight-months pregnant wife following an affair with an intern. A man who left his wife and two toddler children with the explanation “This happened way too fast. I liked you but I wasn’t ready for the kids”. These are all women we know, who we hear of, and we don’t want to be these women. Moreover, more than our own financial security and emotional independence, women have dreams and real contributions to make to society. I don’t fault them for giving their career importance. It’d be a loss to the world if they didn’t.

So do I fault the HBS men who explicitly search yonder for women at other schools, at the Design School, at the Ed school, at the School of Public Health, and at other Boston schools for a woman who is ‘softer’? I think it’s misguided, not least because it’s a stupid suggestion to think that someone from the Ed School isn’t ambitious and doesn’t want to lead education reform, but also because the underlying thinking is a perpetuation of sexist and backward attitudes that have persisted for generations. That rather than have an intellectual equal who will challenge you and cause you to think, you’d rather have someone who is like “Omg you work in investment banking with all those numbers, I don’t even know exactly what you do because it’s so beyond me, you must be really smart, my rich and amazing husband, now let me worship you”.

5. Texting – the most ineffective way of communication with someone you’ve just met

Texting is BAD when you have just met someone, yet it continues to be one of the many stupid cultural practices we stick to because we hate talking to people we might want to date (weird, right?). Many a time, people have come to me with their text messages asking ‘What does this mean?’. I’ve gone to others to ask ‘What should I text back?’

The scope for misinterpretation and simply not conveying what you want is so high with text messages. I was complaining to a male friend ‘He texts back like the shortest replies ever. It’s so rude. It’s like he thinks I’m a disgusting creature he wants to minimize contact with’. My friend said ‘That’s your assumption. He also texts back straightaway which means he could be in the middle of a meeting but he still feels he needs to reply so he texts you a short text promptly’. With a text message, the difference between intention and impact can be high.

6. Biases against ethnic women

“Wow, we’re like irrelevant”

— Indian girlfriend in a club in the UK

“I’ve never felt so boring in my life. Am I really that boring?”

— Indian girl at HBS who recently moved over from India

Dating is especially hard for ethnic women living in Western societies, due to the cultural and aesthetic biases against non-white women. Most ethnic minority women know this, just from being us. We grew up on a diet of Disney and Hollywood movies watching ‘beautiful’ women that look nothing like us (though Thank God for Princess Jasmine and Pocohontas, right?). I sometimes wonder if other ethnic women notice this as much as me and admire their ability to just accept things as they are. For me, I’ll be honest, the older I’ve gotten the more exhausting it’s gotten that there are so few relatable Indian female characters in movies, books, TV.

OKCupid, an online dating site, has done some interesting research which has added data to this feeling of racial biases we intuitively knew.

As you can see, white people had the strongest preference for dating someone of their ethnicity, whilst other races were more open-minded to others.

There was also analysis of the response rates of different ethnic groups from others. The results have been summarized widely as:

Men
Non-black men applied a penalty to black women
While black men showed little racial preference either way

Women 
All women preferred men of their own race
But they otherwise penalized both Asian and black men

As a writer on The Abstract Factory put it “although diversity of aesthetic preferences, including preference for racially marked features, may be a simple personal choice, systematic statistical skew in aesthetic preferences across a large population strongly indicates socialization to racially biased standards of attractiveness”

If you’re interested in the details, see the matrices below from OkCupid 2009 data. Green highlights a higher than average response rate, yellow a neutral/lower one and red a very low response rate relative to average. The numbers on the perimeter of the table are the weighted average rates for each column/row.

7. The culture of ‘casual’ & break-ups

“You can plan a pretty picnic but you can’t predict the weather’

-– Outkast, Ms Jackson

Break-ups are so prevalent these days that even if you ‘find’ someone, it’s in the back of your mind that this probably won’t last. And the readily available option of a break-up in the face of any difficult situation makes it all the more likely.

The footloose and global nature of our lives is another factor: we’re constantly moving geographies, and we don’t know where we’ll be in a few years from now.

This has led to an increasing prevalence of casual making out and casual sex, which disadvantages the people who don’t want to play that game. “You have to make the guy wait. Otherwise why would he invest in you or marry you” said a married woman to me. I was surprised how she could generalize what worked for her in small-town America to me, in Boston. The fact is I’ve been replaceable in all romantic interactions – and easily so – due to the ready availability of women willing to hook-up casually.

Women should completely own their own bodies and make their own decisions in pursuit of their own happiness, so no judgment when they do — but the real question is: how much of the hooking up is actually women doing what they want as a first-best option and how much is women being forced by systemic forces to hook up because of the dim possibility of the loving relationship they really want and have been denied for so long? I can’t help but wonder…Have women been liberated or are we just in a new renovated prison?

Again, I don't think completely agree or disagree with her. But if you are looking to date at a Business school, the above tips might come in handy. I will write something more about in the upcoming Rule 103!

**gmatexam439** · Jun 11, 2018

Haha again an eye opener post

Posted from my mobile device

**treetree** · Jul 24, 2018

one of the most interestign topics i've seen here! my preference for undergrads for sure, young and innocent

**Businessconquerer** · Jul 17, 2019

bb wrote:Is there going to be a follow up article from BW about the most attractive male students?

Both the date and the sarcasm are well timed... lol

**stonecold** · Oct 17, 2019

Newly found perspective after one year of business school: NO ONE GIVES A CRAP IF YOU DATE AN UNDERGRAD, GRAD, PHD or a Fellow MBA. You like her/him- Go tell them

bb · Oct 17, 2019

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**Businessconquerer** · Oct 17, 2019

stonecold wrote:Newly found perspective after one year of business school: NO ONE GIVES A CRAP IF YOU DATE AN UNDERGRAD, GRAD, PHD or a Fellow MBA. You like her/him- Go tell them

I thought that's the usual convention. As long as you're 18+.
But that's sad to know that with all the liberal thinking going on, we all know that all diversity jibber-jabber, people still thought that dating is wrong.

Which university are you a part of sir? I might learn a thing or two from them.

Posted from my mobile device

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